Jewel of the Seas 11/25/2007 - 12/01/2007

Wow, what a large blog. To get back to the main point, I agree with
you, RCCL should inform us if a large group of this persuasion is
booked on a cruise.

Just tell them the men in drag were very unattractive women.

I completely agree with you. In a similar experience, my parents took
my 6 year old little brother to Disney World during gay pride week
(they had no idea) and were a little more than surprised. This is
when he learned what "gay" meant. While I am not homophobic, I didn't
want my brother exposed to the homosexual lifestyle just yet and I
can't imagine how a parent would feel.

This does bring another issue to the table; should we really expect
companies to advertise when large groups of gay people will be in the
same locations as us? Is that really ethical on our part?

It's a double edged sword; I didn't want my little brother exposed to
these types of lifestyles yet, but at the same time I don't think it's
fair to expect companies to inquire about peoples sexual orientation
as a way to keep the straight people comfortable.

This is just a sticky situation.

In her defense, people, she said she would've been equally offended if
it was heterosexual people behaving the same way.

I think this is a case of "I didn't care who was doing it, but SOMEONE
was being unappropriately naughty."

Just thought I'd point that out.

I would've probably complained too, reguardless who was acting
unappropriate (albeit dressing up in 'drag', so long as it was
appropriate to the area, is of course not one of these things). The
fact was, someone WAS in her letter.

what's left?

the OP truly would be equally offended by the same behavior of
homosexuals and heterosexuals, she would have left their orientation
out.

Get over it people. Cruise ships can not post which groups will be
sailing on their ships for security reasons.

How would you like it if you were part of a large group and that
groups name was posted all over the internet. This is an invitation
for any one that has a perceived hatred toward your group to sail on
the same cruise as your large group and potentially inflict harm.

Suppose a large group of African Americans were sailing on a
particular group. This was posted on a cruise lines sight only to have
a white supremist group see this. Next the White Supremist group sees
this posting and realizes it is great place to inflict harm to that
particular group.

Now do you see why we can not have cruise lines posting who will be
sailing on their ships. It is a matter of safety.

I wonder what would happen if you replace "gay" with "Jewish"...

Just returned from a cruise. We were not told that there would be a
majority group on the cruise. The group was a part of Hillel, a Jewish
group. While we are not anti-semitic or prejudiced the group in those
numbers were very offensive. We would be equally offended to see
Christian people behaving that way which is why we would not book a
"Evangelical" cruise. There were children on the ship as well and
parents having to explain men with hair hanging down their faces,
etc., etc.

Post on their website when large groups have booked a particular
group. I mean, come on, if Disneyland can do it why can't they.

I would have been upset by that also. Next time you book a trip like
this, just ask them if there is a large group traveling on your
selected dates. They'll tell you, and if you don't like what you hear
(or if they won't say) then you can choose to rebook either a
different vessel, a different cruise line, or different travel dates.

But the immaturity and name-calling from posters, including several
who I generally respect and agree with, really was getting me wound
up, so I'm just going to post my response and be done with it.

To put things in perspective - I'm a former theatre/choir kid, and my
absolute best friend in the entire world is gay. In my experience, I'm
always the most open-minded and accepting person in any
situation/group I've ever been involved with. And I can see where the
OP is coming from, if not even agree with the OP.

If a large, organized group that has a name, like the International
GLA, is going to be booking the majority of cabins on a cruise, it
might not be a bad thing to let people know in advance. Honestly, I
can see this being beneficial for many reasons.

For one thing, if there are people out there, who are entitled to
their opinion, who believe that homosexuality is wrong, they can stay
away, and prevent comments/complaints like the above from being made.
Having some experience with such things, I'm well aware that men in
drag aren't for everyone. ;)

For another thing, it might be beneficial to consider the
organization, regardless of whether they're a particular race,
religion, sexual orientation, political party, or what have you, and
determine whether their idea of a successful vacation will be similar
to that of vacationing families with small children, etc. Having
separate decks or even separate cruises, as they often do (family vs
singles, etc, which all could be classified as a form of prejudice,
when you get right down to it) doesn't seem like such a big deal.

I do also have to say, that when I read this complaint, what occurred
to me first and foremost was that the OP was complaining about
behaviour of the individuals, not the morals of the group as a whole.
A group that celebrates something that may not be palatable to
everyone or appropriate for all eyes and ears (i.e. small children)
might need to be considered more carefully - I'd say the same for
swingers, furries, porn cons, etc. Even if we are good parents who
teach our children right, that doesn't mean that they should be
exposed to such things at such an early age.

If the group is large enough that they're established internationally,
or even nationally, or even locally, they shouldn't mind being
recognized for what they are, as it seems that would be something
they're celebrating. And I don't think that calling a spade a spade is
any type of -ism, phobia or prejudice, I think it's simply realistic.

And as far as final thoughts? Heck, maybe the men in drag don't want
small children and families around when they're having their fun. I
certainly don't want small children around when I'm drinking and
acting hedonistic. :D

Wow. This has gotten really out of hand. I agree that no one,
regardless of sexual orientation, should be acting innapropriately in
a public place, particularly where children are involved. A lot of
people here are way out of line with the name-calling and whatnot, and
a lot of people unfortunately fail to see the hypocrisy in attacking
someone on their views in the same breath that they're shouting about
tolerance. I wasn't there, so I don't know what this were doing, but
you don't seem to be singling out gays but rather using your
experience as an example on why people should know if any type of
large organization is going to be on the cruise. I don't think this is
an unreasonable request, as there are probably lots of groups out
there that not everyone else would have any interest being around on
vacation. I doubt many of the shouters here would choose to take a
cruise booked primarily by Southern Baptists who conduct prayer
meetings on the deck every evening, and they'd probably decide to book
a different cruise if they had that information. Same concept.

Oh, so you are saying you are only against large mobs of gays, but one
or two is OK? In the words of Willie Shakespeare "Methinks the lady
doth protest too much!"

OMG! Parents actually having to PARENT their children and explain to
them that the world is much broader and, um, brighter than the tiny
little corner they live in! The horror! I can't imagine anything
worse!

Oh, Wait! Yes I can, THIS LETTER!!

If you are truly on a cruise to relax and enjoy yourself, unless the
throngs of homosexuals are (gasp!) camped out in your room or having
sex on your dining table, why do you care? They aren't concerning
themselves with what you are doing, so why are you exerting such an
inane amount of energy over their activities?

And FYI, sweetcheeks, Disneyland DOES NOT warn people when the gays
are in town, there was a letter complaining about it earlier this
year.

You mentioned you would have been "equally offended to see
heterosexual people behaving that way".

If this is the case you could have written your letter to RCL that
expressed your displeasure with the behavior you saw. I would have to
agree with the other posters who called you homophobic because you had
to mention that the group causing the problem was a gay group.

If you were not homophobic or prejudiced you could have stated that a
particular behvior bothered you and asked RCL why the allow that
behavior to happen.

Further more you didnt describe the so called lewd behavior or what
you did to get the matter resolved while aboard the cruise.

Lastly, you claim you parents had to explain to children what men
dressed in drag. Did you have to explain this to your children? If not
then it has no bearing to your complaint. If you did, your children
would have eventually been exposed to this in society. If you were as
tolerant as you claim, this would have been a simple explanation that
some people decide to dress that way, but I feel you chose to make it
an issue because the cruise had a gay group aboard.

I don't think that having an LGBT group on board is the issue.
There's a lot of LGBT groups that travel and cause no disruption.
It's the lewd behavior of this particular group that's an issue.

And before anyone asks - I'm a devout Christian, the proud niece of a
lesbian couple, and proud sister of a gay young man.

Cliches abound here. So do populist beliefs. Both are signs that the
posters who uttered them really don't have an opinion, and are just
glomming onto someone else's. To have a justifiable opinion doesn't
mean listening to someone and then repeating what they've said. It
means living, absorbing, and reaching a conclusion all by yourself. It
doesn't mean repeating anyone else's dogma. If the words used here,
the phrases, the cliches, are mostly things you've heard before, be
suspicious. There are very few responses here that are the result of
careful, individualistic thought. A couple of worthwile grains in this
mountain of chaff.

If we're supposed to be so tolerant and accepting of other people, how
come no one is being tolerant or accepting of the OP's personal choice
not to be exposed to this particular group of people? It's not a free
society if we're forced to embrace lifestyles we don't agree with.

Tolerance is defined as showing respect for the rights or opinions or
practices of others. Everyone is so concerned about being sensitive
to the rights of gays, lesbians, etc. that anyone who has a different
opinion is automatically branded as the bad guy.

"Phobic" means a fear of something. Just because someone doesn't
agree with a certain lifestyle doesn't mean they fear it or "just need
to educate themselves." It is 100% his right to prefer not to be
stuck on a cruise ship for several days with ANY group of people that
he otherwise would not choose to associate with.

All that being said, he really doesn't have much of a leg to stand on.
The cruise line can't broadcast that they're having specific groups
of guests onboard. That's the problem with cruises... you run the
risk of being trapped onboard with people you may or may not like, be
it gays or insurance salesmen or, God forbid, people who celebrate
Straight Pride.

So you are not homophobic or prejudiced to gays lesbians and
transgendered people in small numbers, but only "in those numbers"?
I'm glad you'd be "Equally offended" by heterosexual people behaving
that way, but does that mean a few or "in those numbers"? Not that any
of that matters or should.


Any other groups they should "poston their website"?

Just because "Disneyland" posts "GLBT" days, does not mean they
exclude anyone on non "GLBT" days. There is a difference.

You have every right to your opinion. You are uncomfortable because
you were raised to be. My parents, though well meaning, did the same
thing. I made the decision early on to follow Jesus and not to judge
if I could. It is tough and believe me I do not want to see any
couple pawing all over themselves in front of my 5 year old but
dressing differently is not that bad.

I think the issue here might be more of a poor letter than anything
else. At first glance I would agree that the writer sounds like he
simply has a problem with being around homosexuality. But I am also a
member of Cruise Critic where there has been some very detailed
discussions of this particular sailing.

From the things I have read there it sounds as if there truly was some
inappropriate behavior on this ship- not really related to the fact
that this was a gay group- just an ill-behaved group. Of course there
are bad passengers on any sailing, but large groups tend to exacerbate
this. If you wish to complain to RCI about the incident, you should
include much more detail about the behavior you observed and the
crew's failure to respond to the situation. (If anyone cares to read
about it, there are a great number of postings about this on
cruisecritic.com)

They have received many complaints on this sailing and have responded
to some Cruise Critic members indicating that their current group
booking policy is now being reconsidered.

RCI's policy does not allow them to disclose any information about
group bookings- even if you directly ask them. However, in the future
you can Google your ship and sail date, and will usually be able to
determine if there are any large groups on your sailing.

Just wanted to share some additional information and give the letter
writer the benefit of the doubt!

To my fellow allies of the GLBT community, I say this: the ONLY thing
that changes people is personal experience. No one will change their
mind on homosexuality based on a single word we post here.

Only when a person is faced with a loved one coming out and they are
forced to confront their own prejudices (no matter how deeply buried),
do they start to realize how insignificant sexual orientation is as
far as the kind of person someone is, or to the quality of their
character.

Having served on the board of PFLAG with Christian ministers whose
children came out, with older (60+) men who struggled anywhere from
six weeks to a year (the average time for a parent of a gay child to
go from freaking out to full acceptance of their gay child) and came
full circle and completely reconciled their strong (did I mention
ministers?) Christian beliefs with their love and complete and
unquestioning acceptance of and respect for their gay child, I can say
that people do change their beliefs on this. As more and more people
come out, more and more people will change.

And in Queen Green's defense, the black community is an especially
tough one for gays -- gay men in particular. I'm not saying anything
about QG's circumstances or family or friends--I know nothing about
that whatsoever. Black gay men are still, generally, very closeted.
It will take more time for them to come out in greater proportions
when compared to their white counterparts.

And it took some guts for QG to stick her neck out and disagree with
the rest of us on such a controversial, emotion-laden topic.

So let's PLEASE not let this become a back-and-forth argument as other
gay-related letters have become. So far, this has been pretty civil.
Perhaps if you find yourself becoming agitated and sending off an
emotional response to someone, take a breather. Don't escalate
things.

That's just my request of so many people whose "company" I enjoy and
whose opinions I respect (even if I disagree) (mostly). ;)

Yeah, you heard it from me: Let's play nice. Pick your jaw up off
the floor now.

Not homophobic or prejudice, yet, you took the time to sit down and
write a complaint letter about it? Sad, when people like you are so
prejudice. My wife and I went on a cruise that had a gay group on it,
they did not bother us at all. They only bothered you because you let
them, homophob!

I think that cruise lines should warn travelers of other people who
are bringing unruly children on the ship. Now THAT is something I
would like to know about in advance.

"We would be equally offended to see heterosexual people behaving that
way..."

You did say this was a cruise, right? Don't know about you, but every
cruise I've been on has had people wearing teeny-tiny bathing suits,
had lewd nightclub shows, drinking to excess, kissing (cruises are
tops with the honeymooners), etc.

Heterosexual people behave poorly on cruises all the time.

while some may feel you reaction is negative, you have a right to your
opinion. If you are uncomfortable around Gays, Lesbians,and
Transgenders you have a right to not cruise with them,but because you
are the uncomfortable one, it's your responsiblity to find an
alternative cruise. If my husband and I were cruising without our
children this would not bother/effect me at all. If the children were
accompanying us I would have a problem with them seeing displays of
affection between same sex couples because my husband and I as
Christian parents have taught our children that while you must be
tolerate of all people, same sex relationships are wrong in the eyes
of God. That's my opinion, some may disagree....and I respect that.

Just remember, everyone: Someone you love is lesbian or gay and you
don't even know it. That person (child? niece? sister? uncle?)
hears your words and sees how you react to others when they talk about
gay people in negative ways.

http://www.pflag.org/

Those weren't "men in drag," they were transgendered people. As
someone who's been *very* active in the GLBT (gay, lesbian, bisexual,
transgendered) community as an ally (and board member of PFLAG --
Parents, Families, and Friends of Lesbians and Gays) and as a friend,
I assure you that you have so much to learn about transgendered people
(as do most people). One in every 2,000 births is a gender-variant
child. That's a pretty high number.

While I understand you were uncomfortable, you merely are uneducated
about this aspect of the GLBT community. This was a great chance to
teach compassion, sensitivity, and respect toward others who are
different.

I've learned a lot from transgendered people. For example, the most
decorated war hero in the state of Minnesota is now a woman! How cool
is that? She was a hero as a man during WWII, and then he was brave
enough to become a woman -- I think that's awesome!!!

"While we are not homophobic or prejudiced the group in those numbers
were very offensive."

No, I don't believe for a moment what you wrote here. You appear to
be both a bit prejudiced and homophobic. That is OK, just keep it to
yourself. There is enough stupid in public already.

While you can claim that you are not homophobic or prejudiced, your
letter certainly points in that direction.

If you really feel that way, why not just stay inside from now on.
That way you don't have to worry about running into people of this
persuasion.

Unless the group is being inappropriate I really dont think its any of
your business.

I find the sight of some fat men and women in swimsuits disgusting,
and the way they shovel food in their mouths, it makes me want to
vomit. Then I have to visit the doc, which would be the cruise ships
fault for allowing fat people on there.

See how stupid that sounds?? Homosexuals are people, and you cant
exclude them because you feel uncomfortable.

When my son asks me about things like this I just tell him thats the
way they want to be and its perfectly fine.

Silly me, I thought it was easy to explain. Of course, I HAVE been
teaching my son to be tollerant of everyone no matter how they look,
who they love, what religion they are, if they differently abled or
what.

Let's just get something straight here. YOU did not make any effort to
figure out what was going on a ship that you were going to be on in
the middle of body of water. YOU could no, SHOULD have done some
research into what was going on the ship, for your own piece of mind.
What if there had been some kind of special foods week and you were
allergic to something that they might be serving.
I'm sure it would have only taken 5 minutes to either call Royal or
your travel agent and ask about the cruise. If you had done that then
maybe you would now have a leg to stand on. Did you talk to a Manager
on board? They may have been able to provide some insight into what to
do

P.S. I'm sure Royal Carribean could care less if the passengers are
gay, straight, bi whatever.

Cruise lines are under no obligation to let passengers know that
certain groups are booked on a cruise. If you really want to know, do
some research. That information is easily found. Cruise Critic is a
good place to start.

"While we are not homophobic or prejudiced the group in those numbers
were very offensive." *snicker snort*

Are you also the type of person who says 'some of my best friends
are....so I'm not prejudiced'? *snorfle*

Just once, I would like to see a letter from a member of the LGBT
communtity that read 'I was so offended by all those heteros,
flaunting their sexuality, kissing in public, etc. There were children
present, after all.'

Welcome to a world where it's okay to be different, whether that means
gay/bi/trans or someone who doesn't give a fig about the CHRIST in
christmas, to refer to one of our recent top letters.

What explanation did the parents really have to do? I've always found
"I know, sweetie, doesn't he look fabulous?" to be enough.

Seriously, you need to describe more of the objectionable behavior,
because making fashion choices other than the ones your social circle
would make is not the sort of thing that people who aren't homophobic
or prejudiced can't cope with.

Did you know that some people actually parade small humans around as
trophies of heterosexual sex? Now, that's the sort of thing I'd like
to be warned about in advance. Still, I suspect that the big cruise
lines will not cooperate on that.