Ikea Employees Should Be Punished

I don't know if or how they should be punished, but I was really
disturbed at some of the comments on here. I agree that you should
carefully strap your child into any device. But you know, accidents do
happen.

I have three children, and they do fall, even when I am careful. At
the very, very least, somebody should have ran and gotten a manager.
Even if they don't know what's going on, they know there is a
situation involving a woman screaming for an ambulance. How it was
handled was totally inappropriate.

They tell us in first aid and CPR training that during the event of an
emergency, the person assisting must and ALWAYS POINT TO ONE
INDIVIDUAL and say "YOU, CALL 911". You must never say just "Call
911".

Why?

People, especially in crowds, have a natural tendency in high stress
and emergency situations to freeze up and not know what to do. Mostly
they just watch (ever see rubberneckers, the ones that slow down
during car accidents to watch? It's just like that.) They already
think someone else is handling the situation. When you say "someone
call 911," others will look around, see people on their cell phones,
and think "Hey, they're already calling 911, I don't have to." The sad
reality is that 9 out of 10 times, they are not calling 911, but a
friend, family, etc...

When you point to ONE person, the responsibility falls on them. They
are given a task, and they do it.

The Ikea employees most likely found themselves in this exact
situation during the course of the accident. I do believe yes, the
Ikea employees should be better trained to react in emergency
situations. To fire them for something they were not trained to handle
is too much. As a parent, you are responsible for the safety of your
child.

A couple questions that are not explained in the letter:
1. Did any employees see this accident take place?
2. What reason did the employees have to dial 911 other than someone
screaming for them to do so? Maybe they legitimately did not know
what was happeneing and was not going to call 911 and say:

"911, what is your emergency?"
"Yes, I'm an employee at IKEA, and someone just told me to call 911".
"Can you tell me what the emergency is?"
"Um, I don't know, I was just told to call 911 without knowing what
happened"

3. Could the employees reluctance to help be a reflection on the
Sue-happy) society we live in?

Though I find it hard to believe that employees would really do
nothing if a baby was in danger (I find it much more likely that no
employees witnessed the fall and were unsure as to what happened),
this letter is a great example of why an employee MIGHT NOT be so
quick to get themselves personally involved.

If this woman allowed her child to fall to the ground, then later
complained that the employees of the store did not call 911 before she
did, then how might she have reacted to an employee who may have
rushed in and tried to take control of the situation? For example,
what if the employee didn't hold the baby's neck still enough and
"caused more damage" to the baby?

All too often the people who try to help in emergencies are the ones
blamed (and sued) by the people they are trying to help.

This letter is one side of the story, before we condemn everyone who
didn't do exactly what this mother thought they should (when she
wanted it), we may want to ask ourselves these and possibly other
questions. I hope it didn't happen the way this mother said it did,
but we don't really know if this is a legitimate story or if it is
embellished a little to make the complaint stand out more.

I cannot comprehend how this situation even happend. How could an
employee usher you out of the building and not do anything??

It amazes me.

Even if they didn't see what happened, they should have a loss
prevention team or at the very least a manager on duty or even head
salesperson that would be able to file an accident report, assess the
situation and call 911 on your behalf.

I don't agree that anyone should be fired or that the employees should
have to write you a letter. I do think the store manager should write
you a letter. I think the corporate offices of IKEA should offer to
pay for medical bills. I do think the team at this IKEA needs some
saftey lessons and emergency preparadness procedure policy reviews.

Yes the employees should have deffinetly done something, but how on
earth did your daughter fall out of her carseat? I can see the car
seat falling, heck we all put our babies seats on carts, that most car
seats are now cart compatable and latch to the carts, but in order for
her face to hit the pavement i would have to imagine that she wasn't
buckled into her seat, which would be a bad bad thing

Does anyone know if there was any resolution this letter.

HI Katie
Let me get this right BOTH you and your husband were beside the child
that fell. Well why were'nt YOU watching your child????? What about
Hubby???
If you are too busy or lack the ability to watch a 4 year old then you
should have secured a baby sitter.
It is NOT the employee's job to babysit your kid.
Katie-newsflash-what was your husband doing during this
incident????????? Seems like it took him a long time to respond. Duh
Take responsibility for you actions and in this case lack of action.
BOTH YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND SHOULD BE PUNISHED!!

I think what may have thrown the employees off was that this was a
young child. If it were an elderly customer who passed out, they would
most likely call 911, but with the child being so young, they most
likely had no idea what to do. It sounds a little off, but most
furniture salespeople are unsure of how to handle incidents involving
younger customers.

for awhile now, and I've read some of the comments.

I really do think I've got a much better idea of what happened now
than I did when I'd just read the original letter, and I think that's
too bad, because over time I've gone from agreeing that Ikea employees
could have handled this better but kind of sympathizing with them to
agreeing that some kind of punishment really is warranted.

I've had some jobs where there was a lot of responsibility and I was
expected to take charge of emergency situations, and I've had some
jobs where I didn't expect any real crises to arise. I worked retail
after those jobs with all the responsibility, and even though I think
I was pretty good with crises when I anticipated them, I admit that I
froze when emergency situations happened at the retail job.

Once a woman got onto a down escalator with her baby in a stroller and
let go of her stroller to get something out of her purse -- the child
tumbled down the escalator. Another time a man coming up lost his
balance near the top, fell and rolled down, and proceeded to fall and
roll a few more times as the escalator repeatedly got him almost to
the next floor. In both cases I froze and other people working in
nearby stores had the presence of mind to contact mall security and
911 before I could think of what to do. In the second instance, very
upset shoppers kept running into my store demanding that I stop the
escalator, which of course I was unable to do.

My point is that if not in a mindset where an emergency seems likely,
I respond much less well to emergencies than if I am hal-expecting
them (I think there was also a bit of the Kitty Genovese factor in
play too -- I responded quickly when I was the person responsible for
reaponding, whereas when my responsibility was less clearly defined
and there were other people who were responsible with me I waited for
one of them to take the lead. I'm not proud of how I acted in either
case and I'd like to think I'd do better today ... but to be honest, I
can't say for sure that I would.

So yeah, I can see retail employees not handling things well,
hesitating to call 911 long enough that someone else did it first and
taking a family to where the ambulance was going to come in order to
make sure that medical treatment came ASAP but not waiting with the
family or expressing concern. And at first, that's what I thought had
happened. Now, of course, I know better. (In fact, as I think about
what I now understand to have happened, I'm reminded specifically of
the abduction of Adam Walsh and I am especially grateful that this
story has as good an ending as it does.) So I do think the letter
could have been written better than it was.

I initially thought that Ikea should see this as evidence that its
employees need to be trained on how to handle emergencies -- all the
more so because they don't get all that much experience -- quickly and
appropriately. I initially thought that Ikea should also make sure
it's employees are instructed to behave in a more compassionate way
when something happens to customers. And in general when front-line
workers handle things badly I tend to think part of the responsibility
belongs to the people who should have been making sure they had the
tools (including the authority to act and the knowledge of how to
act). But now, after getting a better idea of what "escorted me out
of the store" actually means, I agree that some disciplinary action is
appropriate.

..

Oh, and my contribution to the discussion of the OP's parenting,
because I have read some comments that I think are worth responding
to: nothing like that ever happened to a child I was responsible for.
I attribute that to three things:

(a) to a small extent, a sense of what situations are dangerous and
should not be allowed to happen,

(b) to a greater extent, the fact that they weren't my kids so
(b.1) I had less time in which to make an error, and
(b.2) I could postpone those of my chores during which I would be
more likely to make an error until someone else was with the children,
and

(c) mainly luck.

I am very grateful that I have been as lucky as I have (if you were to
scrutinize my life you would see that I am spectacularly lucky in a
lot of ways). I'm really sorry that the OP has not been that lucky as
well (though I am grateful that she was at least lucky enough that the
child wasn't hurt as badly as she might have been).

No-one will read this because it's so long, but I needed to say it
anyway.

Good Afternoon,

I'm surprised at the tone of all these responses in regards to this
mother's concerns. It didn't matter whose fault it was that the baby
fell, the problem is with how the store and their associates dealt
with an EMERGENCY !! What if this baby was critically hurt and every
second mattered ?? I don't know either where most of you people work,
but I work for a large company (probably not as large as IKEA though),
and we would have never, ever, ever have dealt with it in this way.
What about moral responsibility? Decent human compassion for an
injured infant? Any large Company would deal with the question of who
is responsible for what bills after the emergency was taken care of..
They have more lawyers on their own staff than you could even imagine
(I know we do !) and this would be a minor issue for them.. I'm sure
if an elderly customer has a heart attack in their store they should
just let them drop where they may and sweep them out later, right ??
Please people, think about what you are saying and excusing these
people of - next time it could be someone in your family.. And p.s. to
the mother - I'm so glad that everything worked out fine for you !

Forgive me if this suggestion was posted below...the entries are so
vast that I could not get through them all.
That being said, I do work on the periphery of this industry, and my
experience has shown that more often than not, a customer that is
injured, or the parent of a child that is injured, will request a call
to 911. When the store complies (as a customer service), weeks later
that same customer comes back wanting the bills (ambulance/EMS, ER,
etc.) paid, using the convoluted reasoning, "Well, YOU'RE the ones
that called 911". At times, the EMS report will state who placed the
call and this can place the store that tried to do a good deed in a
very bad position.
I am in no way suggesting that this is what this poster would do...I
am simply telling you the reality of the situation and how our
litigious society has forced stores to adopt what might appear to be
uncaring practices.

The letter is NOT about her kid falling out of the seat. I swear some
of you really need to grasp reading comprehension.

The letter is about employees witnessing an accident and doing
absolutely nothing but standing there staring when they could have at
least asked her if there was anything they could do to help.

I'm pretty sure that when her YOUNG BABY fell A FEW FEET (think about
it, young baby, fall, a few feet), that neither she nor her husband
were thinking too clearly, but probably in a state of panic. It's
really easy to sit comfortably in your computer chair and rationally
judge a situation, but when something that sets off your panic button
happens, not so much, right?

How scary, I know I would also be livid by this situation. I hope
everything works out for you and your baby.

I'm sorry to hear that your daughter's car seat fell over with her in
it, but did you fail to properly secure the car seat to the cart?
Also, you said by your own words that you were hysterical - so who
knows what was going through the employee's minds. I still would have
called the ambulance for you, but maybe it is their policy not to do
that? Could be a liability issue, who knows. Hopefully your
daughter's injuries have healed, but I do think the store owes you an
apology - more if it were their fault that she was injured.

the panic in your baby getting injured like this, your hysterics and
excessive demands ("fired" and "punished" for not rushing to your aid?
Thats a little harsh!)resulted in you, LITERALLY, being shown the
door.

Yes, it would have been decent and good for them to help - an injured
child is still an injured child, but there is NO obligation to do so
and (yes, you would do it and I would do it, but not everyone thinks
that way) but to insist on punitive retribution on these people for
not doing as you expected is just as inconsiderate as them not
helping.

I have to wonder why your husband with the cell phone couldn't call
right then and there? I would NEVER wait for someone else to call EMS
if either of my boys were hurt - I'd be calling myself because they
are MY kids, no matter what my frame of mind was.

And you really need to learn how to remain calm - I can promise you
this won't be the last time your child gets hurt in the next 20 or so
years that they're under your care.

I understand why the employees didn't help. But what I don't
understand is why you allowed them to remove you and your child (if
I'm reading this right). I also don't understand and never will
understand why parents don't get basic first aid and CPR training (I'm
just assuming based on your reaction you have none) You are the person
ultimately responsible for your families well being but you got
hysterical and searched blindly for help when you should have had the
basic skills to take care of this situation. Your husband had a cell
phone? If that is correct that should have been this first thing you
did second I would have fought tooth and nail to keep anyone from
moving my injured child as previously stated you should Never move
someone who has fallen from a height higher than they are tall.
I taught CPR and First Aid for the Red Cross for years and parents who
don't take time out to attend a class that could help them save
someone they love still amazes me. My suggestion is that you call the
Red Cross or the American Heart Assoc. or any other organization and
find classes in your area for both you and your husband. Ikea didn't
cause the accident and while they certainly weren't helpful the bulk
of the blame here lies with you.

It is so sad that those employees did not call 911. As a mother of
four adult children I do understand the difficulty of shopping with
kids, but the fact that this child was hurt is the whole issue of this
story. Those employees should be fired.

Wow...

After this OP answered one of my assumptions below, I have to totally
agree that IKEA screwed up on this one.

She stated they took her down a long hallway pass some computer
equipment and opened a single door that lead to outside without saying
anything shutting the door. I can't imagine any person (store) doing
this to anyone.

That was the point she said her husband called 911. The child was
moved from the floor, and 911 was not even called until they reached
that single door.

(Bad idea to move someone that you don't know what their injuries are
until medics arrive). She agreed 911 should of been called from the
floor, but said they were in shock.

Anyway Ikea certainly seems to need some basic training in showing
some basic concern if this all went down as this OP said.

I think it would of been better had the OP put this additional info in
her letter about the long hallway, and the single door being open that
lead them to be outside alone. That bit of information sheds a
different light on this for me.

Did you ever hear back?

In my first response/reaction, while I condemned the employees for
their lack of action, I faulted the mom for putting the babyseat in
that unsafe section of the cart.

But she mentioned that in the letter, and I have to assume that she
has beaten herself up over her role in this quite enough.

Locally, a Minnesota Viking recently had legal trouble because he
allowed his two-year-old son to play with a drycleaning bag (in fact,
he played a game with it with the child, involving put it over the
head and making a funny face). He truly had not given any thought to
the dangerous aspect of that play. He feels awful.

If it had occurred to this OP that the babyseat wasn't safe in that
position/location, she wouldn't have left the baby there.

She must feel just awful, and I feel bad for mentioning it in my first
response. Can't you just see her warning moms at stores who try this?
"My baby's seat fell out and she landed on her head!" I can't
imagine a mom NOT moving that seat immediately!

I am disgusted with their behavior. Sure 1, maybe 2 were in shock, but
I can't believe that NO ONE took the responsibility to call for help.
Absolutely deplorable response to what was a medical(emergency) issue.
I hope Ikea takes this seriously and and looks to adopt changes to
store policy and apoligize. Good luck and pray your precious daughter
is alright and you too.

This wasn't a complaint about my daughter falling out of the cart. I
know that it was my responsibility to make sure that it was securely
fastened in there. I really really thought that it was. It clicked and
everything. So I really cannot explain to you how it fell out! I wish
I could. I would like to know to. I will for the rest of my life live
with the guilt of this. I could never clear it from my mind. Im sorry
if I have started any hard feelings. I was not putting the blame for
that on Ikea. I do understand under law that they weren't allowed to
do much! It was just the way that they acted toward us that upset me.
Me being a mother, I feel that someone should have at least came out
to check on us and write a report. I called the company the next day
and there was nothing there about it. So a supervisor was never
notified.

Again, Im not going to check this again because it seems as if people
are bashing me for her falling out. I am such a careful parent, I dont
even let her sleep in her own room. I really dont know how this
happened.
Thankfully she is fine. She will get through it and there is no
permanent damage.

Thank you guys for all of your concerns, whether or not, it backed me
up! Gladly people really do care about others in this world!

I haven't read through ALL the previous posts (just some) but here's
my $0.02.
I cannot understand why the witnessing employees didn't at LEAST get
ahold of LP to call 911. My understanding is that IKEA is a rather
large warehouse-type store. We don't have one in our area, so I'm not
speaking from experience. I have seen one from outside while passing
by on the highway and it reminded me of a Costco/Sam's or maybe Fry's
type of setup. HUGE. I DO know from experience that many of these
stores have spectacularly poor cell phone reception so if I were
working, at the very minimum, I would have called the LP department
and had them call 911 for assistance. I've done similar things
before. As "regular" associates, we were not allowed to make ANY
decisions or take ANY action in an emergency situation unless there
was IMMEDIATE danger, such as a fire. The 5 seconds that it would
take LP to pull up the area on camera (and you can bet they can do
that!!) would probably not have made the hugtest difference in her
prognosis.
Based on my experience of using a car seat on/in a shopping cart, I
cannot understand how the carseat or the child would have gone from a
"sitting" type position to face flat on the floor as described. My
carseat actually latches onto the back of the front basket, so it's
virtually impossible to have the seat fall out accidently. Even if
the baby wasn't strapped in, I doubt that a 4 month old would be able
to pull herself up and out of the carseat by herself. Maybe someone
can explain this to me. I'm not doubting, I'm probably just missing
something :)
Any, I'm so sorry about what happened to your daughter and I wish her
the best.
Good luck.

Well for those of you who are saying that this is my fault, you
obviously must not have children. If you go to Wal Mart or some other
store, you see everybody putting their childrens car seat on the cart.
It was put in securely. For those of you who have been to Ikea you may
have noticed the floors are very slippery and the wheels of the carts
go every where. Im guessing from moving motion of the cart the car
seat obviously came undone.

I was not saying that it was Ikeas fault for my childs fall! If you
would have read my complaint you would have realized that. For those
of you who want to open your mouth and blame me.....read it again. All
I was asking for was for the employees to be dealt with. I talked to
the manager after I put this letter up and he even agreed with me that
I should have been treated better. I am not asking for anything from
these people except an apology. So before you judge me, get your facts
straight!

Thank you to all the people who have encouraging words for me at this
very horrible time in mine and my daughters life. I really do
appreciate this.

Even if the employees were not allowed or just didn't care enough to
call 911, they never, ever should have escorted this family out of the
store. That violates one of the basic tenets of emergency medicine.
You do not move a victim unless they are in a dangerous situation, ie:
a burning car.

When I was working at Mcdonald's during college, we had a young guy
crash his jeep through the front of restaurant...Immediatley we called
911 and got someone there to help out.

I do hope your daughter is doing ok, and I think what IKEA employees
did was horrible.

Here's some general thoughts based on other comments:

First, if my child fell face first on a concrete floor, I'd be a
little hysterical too. It's easy to say "put your fear and hysteria
aside" (as Mike said below) until you're the one looking at your
injured child.

Yes, of course, the mother or dad should've called 911. But I'm a mom,
and when I read this letter, I put myself in the OP's shoes. My first
thoughts would've been attending to my child. I can't imagine anyone,
parent or otherwise, thinking clearly in a situation like this.

Which is why I sort of agree with Mike about the employees. They might
have been paralyzed with fear, struck dumb by the incident and not
sure how to respond. But still, someone should've reacted, if only to
get a manager there.

And though I understand liability issues, I have a hard time buying
that even a call to 911 in an emergency situation is so fraught with
legal danger that employees and even managers are not empowered to do
it. As someone below pointed out, what if it was a customer who had a
heart attack? Does the staff just sit around and watch that person
die? What if one of the employees broke their leg? Do they say,
"Sorry, it's too much of a liability to call 911 for you"?

Oh, and for those who claim the mother is at fault for not properly
securing the car seat, uh, I think she knows that. And if my
suspicions are correct, she'll probably live with the guilt for the
rest of her life. She doesn't need us piling on more.

I suspect quite strongly that the folks at the IKEA store have had
some communication around "how do we respond to situations like
this."

As for "my daughter should have never went without attention" -- the
fact is that, as a parent, you have to sometimes put your fear and
hysteria aside and do what's best for the kid -- here it's calling
911. Should they have helped? Sure. But it's your kid.

Likewise, there's nothing they could do for the child. None of them
have medical training. Unfortunately, the lawyers who rule the
universe have made it so that anyone who attempts to help puts
themself and their company at huge risk. It's a sad reality, but it's
a reality.

Try to focus on the fact that your child is going to be o.k., and not
trying to exact a pound of flesh on some poor teenagers who were
undoubtedly scared witless as a result of the situation.

You may also want to pick up the phone, call the store manager and
say, "my kid was in that horrible accident a few weeks ago, and I
wanted to give you guys an update." You might find that it opens a
very uncomfortable door to some good communication about what could
have gone differently.

Let's put everything else aside for a minute and focus on one thing:
"one of the male employees escorted me out of the store and closed the
door behind me."

This alone is inexcusable. I cannot fathom how anyone would think
it's appropriate to remove someone from the store with a clearly very
hurt child and close the door behind them.

They say I'm tough, but I simply cannot understand this behavior.

I understand how Katie was hysterical (who wouldn't be), but removing
her from the store and closing the door behind her (my Ikea has
automatic sliding glass doors, but that's besides the point) is an
amazing act of aggression. Particularly given the potential injuries
to the child.

If the employee did feel that others in the store were in danger due
to the hysterical Katie, this is another thing. But I don't think
this particular remedy (kicking her out) is a good one.

I know some of you have commented how the fall was Katie's fault.
Might be, but Katie hasn't blamed Ikea for the fall.

I know some have said that they can't call 911 unless authorized. "I
immediately started screaming for them to please call 911" seems to me
to be authorization from the parent to call 911.

People say I'm a touch sonofa... but I must have missed something in
this letter because I'm not sure I can see why the reaction to it.
What have I missed?

I agree that the employees need to be dealt with. That they weren't
prepared for an accident/emergency probably reflects more on their
management/lack of training (and perhaps their youth/immaturity?) than
anything else. But their lack of response was inexcusable.

However, how did the baby's car seat just "suddenly [fall] off the
cart"? I have to assume that it wasn't securely on the cart, that it
was in there rather precariously.

Which puts the responsibility for your child's welfare directly on
you.

I'm sorry your daughter was hurt, but I don't see why anyone at IKEA
should be punished.

You say that four employees HEARD her fall and her screams. Did they
actually witness what happened? They heard a baby cry (happens all the
time) and then saw you get hysterical. They probably had no idea what
was going on and were confused, rather than looking at you like you
were stupid. It sounds like a very chaotic scene, and while it
probably seemed like a very long time to you before anyone moved, I
doubt it took your husband more than a minute or so to call 911 for
your child. By the time the employees realized what happened (if they
did at all) there wasn't anything for them to do.

You said the employee escorted you out - was that you alone, or you,
your husband, and your child? Your child should not have been moved,
and if an IKEA employee made you pick her up and take her outside,
then I agree that was negligence. But if you were that hysterical,
maybe he was trying to get you away from the scene to calm down? Maybe
not the best handling of the situation, but this was a retail
employee, not a medical or psychological professional.

Again, I'm very, very sorry your daughter was hurt. But what good will
punishing a couple of IKEA employees do? I think you're very
(understandably) upset by this horrible experience and lashing out at
these people unfairly.

How is the baby doing now?

Just because you didn't sign and accident report doesn't mean that one
was not filled out. Incident report that would be. Did the store
attach the carseat to the car? Was it a store furnished car seat that
detached. The reason I asked why would you think any of this
unfortunate accident was the fault of Ikea.

Who called the ambulance that came?

Peahaps your daughter is she suffered injuries can hir and attorney
and sue you for not securing the car seat.

Accidents happen. I think this one was probably your carelessness.

This is a terrying story and I truly hope your daughter is okay.

It seems like the employees could have shown more compassion. I'm not
exactly sure how much they were allowed to do or could have done,
however. I'm fairly sure they weren't allowed to call 911. Your
husband should have done that immediately, but I suspect both of you
were in shock and quite upset.

It's amazing how YOU dont take any responsibility for your babys fall.
It's all about what they didnt do to help rectify a situation YOU
caused.

I'm really concerned about this one:

We were out side of the store for a total of 10 minutes from the time
he kicked us out and the ambulance got there and took us to the
emergency room.


Was the child moved after the accident?

This is a perfect example of why it makes me crazy when I see a baby
in one of those seats on top of the cart and not inside it.

One of these days a baby is going to die because of it. Thank God it
wasn't yours.

Why in the world are you only asking for an apology?

this company should be paying all current and future medical bills
related to this incident.

A fractured skull?? You had the kid in a car seat, granted, not one of
those cart seat things, but still, you were being cautious

There is ZERO excuse for this to have happened the way you describe
it. I am appalled.

I can only imagine how horrifying this must have been for you. I
can't believe something wasn't done to assist you in someway. I
wonder why one of the employees didn't immediately call for a manager
or someone in authority to call 911 at your request. Escorting you
and your injured daughter out of the store is inexcusable. That
certainly can't be what they're instructed to do in cases like yours.
There must be some kind of policy or plan in place if a customer is
injured. They really let you down.

I hope your daughter makes a full recovery.

In my store employees are told NOT to call 911.

Only members of management are allowed to do so when the responsible
person, being you the mother, states to do so.

If there is no responsible person, there is different protocol to
follow.

Trust me, there are cases that come back where the responsible person
states, I didnt call 911, so I am not going to pay.

I know you went through a traumatic incident but it appears like you
lost it. I don't see that IKEA did anything wrong other than maybe
filling out an accident report, which they probably would have done,
if you would not have been so upset.

Employees cannot do much due to liability reasons, they are taught to
leave those situations to management.

Good Day

Did you get the names of the onlooker employees? Without that they can
not repremand. Sorry this happened. The manager needs to be notified
everytime something like that happens.